The Magicians’ Hale Appleman spoke with Hypable about where Eliot’s relationships are headed after the season 2 premiere.
Anyone who is a fan of The Magicians knows there’s nothing else like it on TV.
Have you ever seen a main character recite the Patrick Swayze monologue from Dirty Dancing to prove they’re ready to become nobility? I’m going to guess not.
But that’s exactly what Hale Appleman had to do while portraying the flamboyant, iconic, dandy of our dreams, Eliot Waugh.
A new phase of Eliot’s journey began last week as season 2 of The Magicians premiered. We spoke with Appleman about about that premiere and where Eliot’s road may take him.
If things sort of follow the books we know that Eliot’s going to be taking on a leadership role in Fillory. And I keep thinking about how he and Margo have been kind of playing at royalty at Brakebills for years now. So would you say it might be a natural fit for him?
You might think of Eliot as the unofficial prince of Brakebills and Margo as his partner in crime. You might think that becoming the High King and Queen of Fillory would be a really easy fit but… it’s not! It’s really not. Eliot is at the top of his class in Brakebills. He’s ascended to a kind of superior role at school. And he’s recreated himself in the image of a lot of powerful, you know, dandies. Dandies from litterateur, Oscar Wilde, glam rockers, David Bowie. People who shook up the status quo. Eliot is redefining himself as, or in the image of, many of these incredibly powerful men. That’s what he wants to be perceived as. Now, the Brakebills bubble is finite. There’s an end to it and he’s reached it. He’s basically unstoppable at school.
Fillory on the other hand is an unknown frontier. In which he’s actually tasked to rule the entire kingdom and the people of this kingdom; whom he’s never met and has entirely zero experience with. So it’s an incredible challenge. Eliot can’t just get by on whimsy and the life that he used to live. So he’s having to redefine himself in Fillory. And it takes quite a long time — in the life of the show — it takes quite a few episodes before Elliot truly is able to acknowledge his responsibility and his moral compass, in terms of rulership. It’s not easy for him at all.
I’ve gotten to see a couple episodes of season 2 and the coronation scene in episode 1 really struck me. It was probably my favorite moment from the show so far. And there’s a lot going on for Eliot, well for everyone, but especially for Eliot in that scene. There’s a lot of layers and there’s a lot of vulnerability and forgiveness. So I was wondering if you could talk about filming that and Eliot’s relationships with the different characters. How it’s almost like a fresh start for them.
Yeah, I think it’s a real unburdening of their hearts in that scene. It’s a rare moment where each of those characters Quentin, Margo, Alice, and Eliot are able to be upfront and clear. Emotionally transparent with each other. I think it’s really beautiful and I think they wrote a really beautiful scene for us and I’m so happy that we got to play it and that it made the cut. I think it was one of my favorite scenes to do. It was particularly touching for Eliot in a lot of ways.
For one I think that male friendship is something that Eliot didn’t have a lot of growing up and I think that when Quentin acknowledges him — his true belief in him — it strikes a chord in [Eliot] that… I just don’t think that he’s ever heard that from another male figure in his life. He certainly didn’t have that kind of support growing up from his family. And I don’t think he had many friends. So I think that Quentin, particularly, starts it off with a real truly heartfelt moment. It connects Eliot to a sense of belonging that he never had before.
Yeah I can definitely see that. And I actually had a question about the relationship between Quentin and Eliot. Because it seems like apart from Margo, Quentin is the closest person that Eliot has ever been to. At least that’s how it reads, so it makes sense that that’s a very special friendship to him.
Yeah it really is. I think Eliot and Margo’s connection goes without saying. They’re not in a particularly dark place throughout that episode, there’s a little bit of distance, but I think we know that they’ll always bury the hatchet and carry on with their relationship. Eliot and Alice have a moment. I think it’s nice that Eliot is able to get over himself enough to acknowledge that he may have truly hurt Alice. In a way that was a real betrayal of their burgeoning friendship. I think that Eliot has a tremendous amount of respect for Alice as a magician and as a person. Her ideals — while he wouldn’t necessarily share — I think he sort of does appreciate those things about her. And that becomes clear when crowns her Alice the Wise. Someone who has some semblance of foresight and wisdom outside of her immediate sensory desires and needs.
For sure. That was a really interesting moment between them. I wouldn’t have necessarily seen it coming but as soon as it happened it felt right. It was really nice. Next I was going to ask about Margo and Eliot, their relationship and dynamic is the most interesting to me on the show so far. Just because it’s so unusual and so layered and just interesting. But their codependency, it also scares me a little bit? And I was wondering if that bond was going to either be a strength or a weakness in terms of ruling a kingdom.
That’s a really great question. Yeah, it’s true, they have quite a codependent bond. Which, I don’t think is healthy by any standard. In the sense that they are the only other person that they’ve had to rely on, in large part, in their adult lives. I think that perhaps it was a necessity at some point. For them to become as close as they did, in the way that they did, it was unavoidable. But their relationship might experience some growing pains this season as they uncover that they have slightly different styles of rulership. They don’t necessarily see the world the same way. They don’t have the same world view.
You think they would in one respect, but the more you get to know them, they really do look at things quite differently.
They’re very different people. They view the world very differently. Margo, she really shoots from the hip and she’s a straight talker and she says exactly what she means. She sometimes takes it a little far, but I think that she’s direct and she doesn’t question herself. And I think Eliot has very carefully constructed this persona. And so his way through the world is one in which he’s sort of wearing this mask. Margo’s mask is one of defiance and strength and a kind of cut throat way with words. You could say something similar about Eliot but I think he’s a bit more considered in his approach to the world around him.
There’s definitely a softness to Eliot that I rarely see in Margo, or that she rarely allows herself to feel. But yeah. I don’t know if they’re going to grow apart because of that or grow together. I’m just really interested in that dynamic.
Yeah, I think you watch them struggle with their own dynamic. In terms of power. In terms of ruling a kingdom. In terms of their own moral compasses.
On Page 2: Appleman on Eliot’s cravings for intimacy and… sex
After last years finale, I was really curious as to how Eliot is gonna handle married life. Because he doesn’t seem like the kind of person who would be into monogamy or heterosexuality for that matter.
He’s certainly not! He’s certainly not the prototypical male version of either of those things. And I think it’s important to remember that this isn’t a marriage of choice. It’s a marriage of necessity. It’s essentially to save everyone. To get after the beast and to preserve our hopes of following through with the grand plan that set up in season 1. Eliot is really reluctant to commit to this marriage in the way that it’s been set up. Even though he’s bound contractually to it. And physically he can’t have sex with anyone else. So I think that it’s sort of fun to watch him try and create loopholes in that manage contract throughout the beginning of the second season. He’ll do what he can to flirt with a handsome guard or five.
Oh, and then there’s this kind of surprising element that Fin brings to the table which is that she’s incredibly sincere and incredibly honest. And I think that that sort of opens something up in Eliot. While she’s not someone who he would have picked for himself, ever, even for just a one night stand, she’s someone who continues to open him up in really surprising ways.
Good. That makes me happy to hear. I want that for him. Because it does seem like a really heavy… like, as funny as it could be, it seems like it could also be a really heavy burden to bear. Especially for someone like Eliot who you can tell really craves love and intimacy.
Yeah he craves — he certainly craves sex. I think he craves intimacy as well. I think you’re absolutely right about that. I don’t think that he gets it. I think he’s quite lonely at the core. I don’t think that he’s really found that outside of Margo, and perhaps Quentin in a fleeting moment or two. They have a deep friendship love that satisfies a closeness that Eliot has always wanted. But I think he is very much searching for the kind of connection that he feels he needs. In order to feel nurtured and taken care of. I don’t think that he ever has before.
Yeah, I think you can see that in your performance for sure. Which is so rich and there’s so much depth there, it’s really beautiful. And I was kind of wondering in that aspect if… because I do, I feel like you bring so much to him [Eliot] if the creators ever get your input on where you’d like to see Eliot go or the arcs of the season?
Yeah. I definitely, in passing, said to John McNamara, “You know I’d really love to sword fight and swashbuckle. If I could ever sword fight through Fillory that would make me so happy.” And he kind of surprised me this season with an episode in which I get to do just that. So they’re definitely incredibly… John and Sara are available to me and they leave a lot of room for interpretation. They let me bring my Eliot to the table. I think they really trust you with that and I’m so grateful to them. It really gives me space to create him. Which is not the case all the time. So I think we’re particularly fortunate to have showrunners who truly let us play with what we bring and cultivate what we bring. And I think it makes for a more interesting show because that’s a part of a really true collaboration. I’m so grateful to them for that.
And then of course they throw Eliot into the most unbelievable situations! Every day I get to go to work and my mind is blown! I get to walk into the next fantasy kingdom or magical forest — and then the circumstances I have to play with are so fun and inspiring. So I really am kind of living a childhood dream by being on this show. Truly.
Well, I’m really glad to hear that they’re willing to collaborate with you because I feel like you can see that in the product of the show. Because as magical and mystical as it is, it does seem very organic at times. And that’s really nice. I was going to ask you what do you think you’ve discovered about Eliot this season that you didn’t know about him before?
Oh, that’s a great question! Hmm… let me think about that. You know I guess I was just surprised, at different moments throughout the season, about Eliot’s relationship to change. The slow gradual embracing of change in his life. He’s not someone who’s particularly… Eliot is malleable in the sense that he’s recreating himself every day and he might surprise you and show a side of himself that you weren’t expecting; but that’s on his terms. So Eliot’s relationship to responsibility: It was a really slow burn this season. I think he comes to grips with [it] in a way that ultimately I’m very excited to see how it continues to evolve. I guess what was surprising was seeing how he surprised himself. Really stepping up to the plate every once and awhile, and I think you’ll see that over the course of the season.
That makes me very happy. I like that. As for other upcoming projects, is there anything you have coming up that you’d like to tell people about or anything you’re hoping you get to do? I don’t know what your schedule is like right now.
Oh yeah. Right now, honestly I just took the first vacation of my adult life, which was totally amazing. I’m actively seeking the next project, whether that be a film or a play. I continue to create music in my spare time. But right now I’m really just looking for the next thing. So there’s not really an exciting answer.
No, I understand. That’s how life works. You don’t always know what’s coming.
You don’t do you! Very wise.
But it was nice speaking with you. I hope we get to do it again.